Happy New Year to all.  

I have always 'slept like a log'.  In an earlier post on my crazy results from the shady lab, sleepydave pointed out that I have way too much stage 4 sleep in both sleep tests.  I will say that from my read of various posts, that a more typical pattern is to have too little or no stage 4 sleep on one's first sleep study.

I've going to my primary care physician tomorrow to a) complain about what I think is bad care by the sleep doc and b) plead for him to get the real results and c) see if he can get me in to see someone competent soon.  I don't know how much he knows about sleep and I have found nothing via the internet, about why someone would have an excess of stage 4 sleep.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

The only way to tell for sure is to look at the PSG itself.  There would be several hundred pages of PSG there, so I'm sure they wouldn't print them up.

I would say the best possible explanation would be that they used the automatic computer scoring module.  Press the button and FOOM! the thing is scored.  The problem, of course, would be that the scoring criteria weren't set right and the thing over/under/whatever scored a particular stage.  Too much stage 4 would be seen when the amplitude (height) was set too low for SWS.
sleepydave

Or if the leads were poorly applied and there was a lot of sway.
s.d.

Hi Sleepydave,
So - is it improbable that one would have too much stage 4 sleep & more likely that it's an error of reporting rather than a reality?

Hi Linnea:

Well, I wouldn't say improbable.  I would go right on through to impossible.

sleepydave

hey, maybe I'm just impossibly unique?

Just curious if there are typical #s somewhere?
My basic understanding is the stages 3 and 4 are where all the
restorative stuff happens, mental reorganizing, etc.

I had no stage 4. I thought not having REM sleep was more a problem, but I guess no stage 4 is pretty bad.
Is stage 4 more important than 3 for your health?

                             Stage 1      Stage 2    Stage 3       Stage 4       REM

% stage to TST       18.9            40.8        15.4             0               24.8

From http://health.discovery.com/centers/sleepdreams/basics/basics.html

Sleep Stages
Scientists recognize sleep stages by tracking the changes in brain waves. The five sleep stages are repeated as many as five times during the night. As the night progresses, each cycle lengthens, and REM sleep, during which most dreaming takes place, extends.

    *      Sleep Stage 1
      In this brief stage, which may last only a few minutes, the body drifts to sleep. Brain waves are mostly high amplitude, slow waves and occasional alpha waves (like those found when awake).
      Percent of total sleep time for young adults: 5 percent.

    *      Sleep Stage 2
      Heartbeat and breathing slow and the sleep is deeper than in Stage 1. Slow-wave sleep continues with peaks of brain waves (known as sleep spindles) occurring.
      Percent of total sleep time for young adults: 44 to 55 percent.

    *     Sleep Stages 3 and 4
      These are the stages of deepest sleep, when brain waves are slowest. During these stages breathing and heartbeat slow further and muscles relax. Dreams are more common than in the earlier stages and sleepwalking and talking may occur during Stages 3 and 4.
      Percent of total sleep time for young adults: 15 to 23 percent.

    *     REM
      Rapid eye movement (REM) sleep stages lengthen through the night. The first REM cycle may be only 10 minutes while the last could last as long as an hour. During this cycle the heartbeat increases, breathing becomes shallow, eyes move rapidly, muscles are relaxed, and dreams are most vivid. Brain waves resemble those during waking.
      Percent of total sleep time for young adults: 20 to 25 percent.

Hey Jenny,  Thanks for the sleep stage info.  I didn't know about the stages and the definitions.  So REM sleep is separate from the other stages or does it occur during other stages?  Stages 3 and 4 sound like good sleep to me--right?

What is "Delta" sleep?

I've just gotten the doctor's summary of my two tests and had zero delta in both.

TIA

I believe..

Delta sleep is stages 3 & 4, the deep sleep that we need

I believe REM is it's own stage. There's Stage 1, 2, 3, 4 and REM

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.. I'm still in learning mode.

Sleep well everyone!

Jenny33 wrote:

I believe..

Delta sleep is stages 3 & 4, the deep sleep that we need

I believe REM is it's own stage. There's Stage 1, 2, 3, 4 and REM

Anyone correct me if I'm wrong.. I'm still in learning mode. :-)

Sleep well everyone!

That's really the gist of it.
Delta sleep decreases as a function of age.
It is often reduced in diseases that disturb sleep continuity, like OSA.
It can increase when the cause of the sleep disturbance, or deprivation, is resolved, as in a sucessful CPAP titration.  But that's basically a "first-night" effect.
There are a couple of drugs currently in development that can increase delta sleep.
There are a couple of situations where delta sleep is increased:

Increased SWS

sleepydave

Quote:

But that's basically a "first-night" effect.

Yikes!

Since I have seen no improvement after the first two weeks, I am unlikely too?

eddie willers wrote:

Quote:

But that's basically a "first-night" effect.

Yikes!

Since I have seen no improvement after the first two weeks, I am unlikely to?

Probably.  But many people can have good quality sleep without technically having "normal amounts" of SWS sleep.  Also as we age, the height (amplitude) of the EEG may become reduced, so even if the EEG meets width criteria (frequency) it can't be scored as SWS.

A much better gauge is simply objective or subjective improvement in daytime sleepiness.

I think much too much emphasis is placed on SWS as it relates to middle age and beyond.  If you can just put together a good sleep architecture, with few arousals and awakenings, and continuous sleep without a lot of unnecessary stage changes, more often that not that will be fine.  After that, what is, is.
sleepydave

These percentages are good, but lemme make a couple of changes here in the EEG criteria, where they say "slow" in the light sleep stages makes things a little confusing, and besides, I'm picky:

Quote:

Sleep Stages
Scientists recognize sleep stages by tracking the changes in brain waves. The five sleep stages are repeated as many as five times during the night. As the night progresses, each cycle lengthens, and REM sleep, during which most dreaming takes place, extends.

    *      Sleep Stage 1
      In this brief stage, which may last only a few minutes, the body drifts to sleep. Brain waves are mostly low voltage, mixed frequency and occasional alpha waves (like those found when awake).
      Percent of total sleep time for young adults: 5 percent.

    *      Sleep Stage 2
      Heartbeat and breathing slow and the sleep is deeper than in Stage 1.  A backgound theta pattern is present with periodic sleep spindles and K-complexes.
      Percent of total sleep time for young adults: 44 to 55 percent.

    *     Sleep Stages 3 and 4
      These are the stages of deepest sleep, when brain waves are slowest. During these stages breathing and heartbeat slow further and muscles relax. Sleepwalking, talking and other parasomnias may occur during Stages 3 and 4, primarily in children and young adolescents.
      Percent of total sleep time for young adults: 15 to 23 percent.

    *     REM
      Rapid eye movement (REM) sleep stages lengthen through the night. The first REM cycle may be only 10 minutes while the last could last as long as an hour. During this cycle the heartbeat increases, breathing becomes shallow, eyes move rapidly, muscles are completely relaxed (atonic), and dreams are most vivid. Brain waves resemble those during waking.
      Percent of total sleep time for young adults: 20 to 25 percent.

sleepydave