Hey bud hgow are you today?   Well gotta say the pain was better during the day yesterday, but this morning gotten bad again.  I guess I'll have to see what the day holds, it's anyones guess.  I guess I am in that final stage.

I am so glad that you posted the findings on Chloreseptic and Cepacol.  

You know what bothers me alot; its when receiving information on this site by moderators, or anyone else actually, regarding a proceedure, results, medicine makeup, etc. that is NOT well studied (as thease people are NOT DR's., Pharmacists, or professors, or having any formal qualifications for that matter) is being placed on here for people to read and is NOT researched properly.  The opinions are in the truist basic form and NOT well studied in a closed environment that could give the PROPER results of those studies.  Then to add insult to injury, when a rebutal from a trained individual is contradictory to the views of  a moderator of the site, all of a sudden its the PHARMACIST that isint being trained well.  OMG JUST GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!!!!  Nothing ANY DR or PHARMACIST or PROFESSOR ( who by the way DOES have the knowledge) can say will be received here.  I am just wondering WHAT THE HECK IS THE PROBLEM>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>REALLY, it gets totally annoying.  My thought is for people to not get so into giving un studied so called scientific results, and stick to basic information.  I am truly sorry for ranting, but I have heard some way out crazy things on here and when I challenged anyone, because I didnt look at the information as cardinal, I was ignored or not well received.  My thought is anyone that is so hell bent on giving, in their opinion, solid iron clad advice should be prepared to answer ANY and ALL questions honestly and respectively.  

If I had listened to people on this site I would probably have backed out of the surgery...I am glad I didnt.

I will post later Spider, hope your day is better than mine

Nervous15

Thanks Spiders for the objectivity.  It is nice to hear from someone who is truly interested in the facts.  The success rates for UPPP are extensively studied as are the properties of phenol.  I even have a reference from Stanford on UPPP which was offered for review.  If you can't call the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, Stanford or the many other sources of data we present experts, then I don't know who is.  Thanks for the Chloroseptic after surgery references.  I just think it is important not to blindly do things but I really understand that sometimes people put complete faith in their doctors (whether deserved or not as I have personlly found) and hearing different views can be very frightening.

Sorry I encouraged you to post in this thread Nervous.  I have really tried to be supportive and not upset you.  I am glad you are doing so well.  Oh, and I am more of an expert than you think, don't make assumptions.  Do you think I moderate a forum for a living?

Dr. Vicki


_________________
That which does not kill you makes you stronger-Friedrich Nietzsche
Friedrich must of had apnea.

Nervous15:

Since you are so high on research and the opinions of trained professionals, have you researched into the existence of god? What is the proof that he/she/it is out there and blessing you through this surgery. Must be a mischievous god though, since he/she/it is letting you suffer through all this pain, eh?

Vicki you are not upsetting me at all...the fact is whatever research you have dug up, does not address the facts of ALL studies, just the opinion of Standfords research...oh by the way that doesnt make it accurate.

Martain you are truly out there.  Really to even give you a reply to that nonsense  would be below me.  You should try and have some faith...find GOD yourself.  My pain is caused not from GOD, however GOD has loimited my intake of medicine that I needed..to childfrens ibuprofen, and only 2 doses of tylenol w codine in 8 days...lol  The jokes on you.  I am still doing WAY better than most.....Oh by the way just finished 2 delicious pancakes  mmmm mmmm good

Nervous15

Nervous,

You didn't even look at the Stanford article.  They do UPPPs by the way and the Stanford Sleep Disorders department is considered one of the top institutions for apnea research, treatment and surgery in the U.S.  There are plenty of other sources of data as well that I would be happy to provide (or read Daniel's posts on the position of UPPPs in Europe) but it is kind of moot now isn't it?  It is interesting that you want the opinion of experts, but when it is offered you say "oh by the way that doesnt make it accurate", even in the Stanford article which partially supports your views.

Once people have a procedure done, we support them, which is one reason (education is another) for this thread.  The only thing we suggest, which I hope you realize is not negative or misinformed, is that people who have surgery for apnea have a follow up sleep study several months and then years down the road to assess their apnea status as people can and do revert back to apnea.  Our goal here is to keep people healthy.  You have mild apnea and as I said to you before, it is those people with mild apnea who have the greatest success rate.  

I hope that, as you mentioned, you are just having a bad day.  Please, please, please do what you want, but understand that you will get different views than yours which have no less value than yours and no more personal attacks.  Personal attacks are something we do not tolerate here.

Vicki



Last edited by Vicki on Wed May 28, 2008 12:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
_________________
That which does not kill you makes you stronger-Friedrich Nietzsche
Friedrich must of had apnea.

I know this is not the forum for questioning your belief Nervous15.

I shall stand back from this particular argument.

Thank you

You have misunderstood.  I have never personally attacked anyone, all I have stated was the truth.  When you or Daniel have posted information, it has been based on a very small Genre of information gathered, be it in Europe or otherwise.  To read the Standford report or Daniels theory would be a moot point as those findings would not matter, as the information is limited.

When replying to posts, I have been honest of my experiences with this site.  Early on, prior to my surgery, I was almost "beat in the head " with anothers personal beliefs,and limited information.  I thought that was very odd.  Then when asking very ligitimate questions regarding the tissue left in the back of the throat, I got no response and was ignored on that issue.  The more I asked the question the more THAT moderator became angry and backed away...as he should have......he just didnt have the answers.  HE was hell bent on promoting the CPAP machine, and not the real cause of obstruction to the back of the throat.  His theory was if you use enough pressure and force the air down thats a great option; I didn't think so.

You stated that you had told me that people with mild sleep apnea had a great success rate....that NEVER happened.  This site has never once stated ANYTHING positive about UPPP surgery stop playing.  Instead the Opinions of this sites team was to force feed their theory to users of the site by promoting CPAP.   That type of brainwashing may be good for someone early on in age, but for me ...never and a rebutle you will always get.  I base my rebutle by talking with people that have had the surgery with great success, as well as speaking with Sleep Study Dr.s, ENT doctors not just from here but at MAYO Clinic and other geographic locations.  As I have previously pointed out that the Horrible experiences  posted on here are NOT the concenses of the majority of post surgical UPPP patients.   Most of the people that post here are  doing so to VENT their unhappiness of the surgery and generally NOT to promote a positive outlook.
Again there must be thousands of this surgery done throughout the states monthly, and low and behold you never hear of those results....my guess is because they are favorable for UPPP and basically have nothing to talk about.

You state that personal attacks are not allowed...hmmmm so the comment made my Maritan is not only of a personal nature but also sacreligious....now thats bad.  Tell me how did religion rear its head; merely on what I ve said...Im offended and they need to keep those comments to themselves.

If I read a post that is contrary to what I know it to be, I will definately respond with my opinion, and question the etiology of the information.  Here's the thing about the Cepecol, or Chloreseptic .  I know for a FACT that  the doses  of benzo in Cepacol you will not promote tissue damage, although it is a dirivitive of a corrosive agent.  I used those lozengers with great success for  an average raw, strep throat.  I did not know about the post surgical success of that med, and knowing pharmacologically that it has corrosive propensity, I would have to clear that with my DR.   You produce links to users of the site for them to view to substantiate your theory.  When several are given to you, that say otherwise you NEVER admit that maybe you were mis informed, or did not thoroughly understand the articles you have read.  Same thing with DANIELS post.... I believe  another logical view is important.

If posts are placed on here regarding my replys I will continue to voice my opinion as I have in the past.  My belief system is that if another view is not accepted here for rebutle, then we need not communicate.  Just because one does not agree with the findings of another does not mean they personally attack.  Also I believe that people that take  a personal stand on the questionability of a view, are not open for what might be a difference of opinion with the possibility of "opening a new door".

Nervous15

Ok, I'm in the middle of Day 7, and it is by far the worst day yet.  The pain has escalated to a new level.  Everyone seems to say that they hit a tough point somewhere between days 5 and 7, and this must be it for me.  I did manage to get a bottle of Ensure down the hatch earlier today before the pain got so bad.  I still haven't been able to eat any food during the past 7 days, and I am very hungry.  I'm hoping I will soon be able to eat noodle soup and mashed potatoes.  I'm very weak from the whole experience.

I still don't regret doing this.  I seem to be sleeping better, and if that can get even better then this will be worth while.

It seems to me that folks that refuse to listen to the studies want to find ways to discount any and all info that says UPPP is not very effective.  Why?  Because they can't (read WON'T) use CPAP.  The problem is, that there is no quick fix, no pill, no surgery that will fix OSA in everyone.  There is one treatment that will. CPAP.  Is it difficult?  It can be, but like anything else, with the right determination, CPAP does work.  UPPP by many personal accounts does not.  (And if it does, it is VERY short lived)  Simple fact is that if you are anything over an AHI of 12, the surgery alone will NOT treat you down to the effective treatment level of an AHI of 5.  (Simple math 12 divided in half is 6)  


Nervous why not try reading these:


http://www.umm.edu/patiented/articles/what_surgical_procedures_sleep_apnea_000065_10.htm



"We concluded that a high UPPP efficacy may be expected in those with a facial axis of not less than 84.DEG. and aged not more than 42 years old."  And only 42% of the folks in the study had their AHI reduced below 10)
http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200416/000020041604A0510491.php
(Note the very narrow range of folks that they found were helped:


Here is a study from UNC Chapel Hill
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10964287

"CONCLUSION: Overall, these results indicate that UPPP alone in the unselected patient provides little benefit in the management of mild OSA, similar to findings for more severe OSA."

http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=139373


This is one of my favorites.  The doc makes this statement:  "The fact that patient satisfaction (which is an inherent measure of effectiveness rather than a measure of efficacy)"  WHAT?!?!   Patient satisfaction is MORE important than efficacy... Wow!  No wonder its so effective!  Its a quick fix!
http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/123/3/961


and this is quite telling:

"Lu et al. reported that the success rate was
66.7% upon short-term (12 months) postoperative
evaluation, but dropped to 33.3% upon long-term
(87.5 months) follow up"

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1046/j.1440-1819.2001.00851.x?cookieSet=1


So do what you will to convince yourself that it was a good choice.  Fact is, that for most folks it isn't.  And THAT is why you will find most of the info here telling people that.


So, please check back in 5 years with a Sleep Study that shows that your UPPP has treated your apnea.  with a 50% reduction in 40% of the folks that makes a VERY narrow window of efficacy by itself, and for many, all it does is make CPAP therapy harder.

I wish you well with your UPPP but the statistics just don't support it.

See you sound so defensive.  Why.  Well let me say this IF you are a DR you sure have a lot of time on youe hands. LOL

In addition I don't know any DR that would try and deny and get upset over EVERY little thing and not 1 time ever admit there might be a better way than yours.

Also you may have a PHD. Not MD
There is a difference between the 2

Make no mistake I am only on here to through My rebutle arguments alert new posts to the tunnel vision of the originators of this site.  By NO means do
 I need your expertise

Take care DOC

One more thing. In a previous post today you talked about success rate. Were you confused then or now

No Nervous, you are very confused.  That was not a post from me.  There you go with the personal attacks again.  "Well let me say this IF you are a DR you sure have a lot of time on youe hands."  Thanks for using my proper title.

Vicki



Last edited by Vicki on Wed May 28, 2008 3:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
_________________
That which does not kill you makes you stronger-Friedrich Nietzsche
Friedrich must of had apnea.

Quote:

If posts are placed on here regarding my replys I will continue to voice my opinion as I have in the past.  My belief system is that if another view is not accepted here for rebutle, then we need not communicate.  Just because one does not agree with the findings of another does not mean they personally attack.  Also I believe that people that take  a personal stand on the questionability of a view, are not open for what might be a difference of opinion with the possibility of "opening a new door".

Nervous15

Dear Nervous:

While you are correct that ad homenum attacks are not productive I am confident that when you take a different position some are likely to respong this way and its unfortunate but those of us that are here for real options see beyond the silly ad homenum personal attacks so dont let it annoy you.

I was recently diagnosed with severe sleep apnea and just finished my second study and titration (I think that is correct) and they say I will need a pressure of about 14 which I understand is high and my Dr even commented that she did not know if I would tolerate it well.  Now that I have completed the part of the sleep study where they put the mask on me I was amazed.  I initially thought it was a waste of time and was convinced that I wanted surgery.  I then sadly learned that many say the surgery is only about 50% effective at best.  After that I decided to give the CPAP route a try.  As I said, I was amazed with the first night on the machine and as a result of things I learned here "I made the list of the machine and software I wanted including the oximeter and faxed it to my doctor and the DME.  Like you, this is my treatment and I wish to be proactive and involved.  Its my insurance money and the fact that they will not send the monitoring software is also silly and very annoying. (I am digressing here so let me get back on point)

I was told by my doctor that she thinks my condition is serious enough to warrant the surgery and said that she still thinks that even after surgery I would need to be on CPAP but at a substantially lower pressure.  No surgery should ever be undertaken unless absolutely necessary so I am going to give the CPAP a chance first and have chosen to avoid the surgery.  The great thing about medicine is that new things are constantly discovered and improved so sometimes waiting is a prudent move.  I would be interested in learning more about the procedure you found effective.  I understand you had the surgery.  How serious was your condition ?    Where you on CPAP first and if so how long ?  I am also not happy about the possibility of having my uvula removed (regurgitation of food particles and other down sides does not sound very appealing) especially since the surgery is only considered 50% effective.  That is just not high enough for me to go under the knife but please do tell me more about what you had done and how you feel, including how serious your condition was before and how you feel now.  Ignore the negative !@#!, as those of us on this great site and here to learn have also learned to just tune out the noise and focus on the facts that we can run down ourselves and make a determination about how we feel about it.  Including (in fact especially including the dissenting options)

Thanks

nervous15 wrote:

One more thing. In a previous post today you talked about success rate. Were you confused then or now

I would hate to see this thread closed because of personal attacks.  They will stop now.